ULE log burners in new builds?

Hello, who here is thinking of installing one of the new ULE Ecan approved wood burners in there new build? Any recommendations? advice?
I am due to begin building in a few months and am yet to submit for CCC consent . just weighting up whether to spend 10k and get one now or wait 6-12 months and see if new ones come on the market - while waiting i am hoping that Ecan dont change their minds. HELP!? Thanks

ljx, Jul 17, 11:06 pm

ECan are quite likely to pull the pin on future resource consenting of the burners authorised to date , which in turn will stop others trying for authorisation .
The test procedure is flawed massively , with ongoing debate about exactly how flawed .
I wouldn't take the chance , get in now

golfaholic2, Jul 18, 8:23 am

Glad we got our wood burner in earlier in the year. LOVE ?? it

craftylady1, Jul 18, 9:53 am

We are going to wait for a more suitable ULE burner to come along, or we'll get inventive! We have a place for a fire in our being built home.

wanderer52, Jul 18, 2:16 pm

Is it worth the risk of having one if it smokes long enough to get you a $750 fine.

cassina1, Jul 18, 2:34 pm

Even the older models do not smoke if you burn dry wood and not rubbish and not shut them down to much .

martin11, Jul 18, 2:41 pm

You are quite right martin . they will however emit a little ash . harmless larger particles , but stupid ECan count it all as PM10

A lot of newer burners will emit less ash , but more smoke .

ECan and the Ministry cannot seem to grasp that not all particulate is created equal .

golfaholic2, Jul 18, 5:04 pm

Ijx, my advice is to go and see one running. That way you can make an informed decision.

pezarointeriors, Jul 18, 7:45 pm

Thanks for all the advise. I am feeking torn. Craftylady . do you have a ULE burner . which model did you install? After your advise golfaholic I am worried if we wait too long we will miss out. I don't know anyone who has a new ULE burner . just have to trust in the system?

ljx, Jul 19, 1:16 am

ljx. we installed a Masport Grandview which was legal when we bought it at the end of last year. not sure if it is now. Ours was a replacement for another masport as it had reached 14 years, so we decided to get a new one before rules changed. It burns very well and doesn't smoke that we have seen. We burn only dry wood

craftylady1, Jul 19, 6:03 am

Ijx, I wouldn't worry too much. There are no experts on here as to what Ecan plan to do. The new air plan is unlikely to change before you build. Therefore take your time and speak with people that have the correct knowledge to assist in your requirements when the time comes.

pezarointeriors, Jul 19, 8:04 am

ECan do not even know what they are doing , so how could anyone know what the clowns will do .
I can tell you this , the authorisation tests are flawed by a factor of up to 6 . the saving grace will be the phasing out of conventional burners as of 2019 if memory serves , and a low uptake? of ULE burners until then

golfaholic2, Jul 19, 8:21 am

OT. The op wanted to know if it made sense to purchase an uleb now. You and I know that would suit me more than you. The fact is your view of the test is not relevant to their question, which appears to be around cost. Are they going to come down in price? Who knows. One model is sold for less here than where it is made. It has been on the market in America and Europe for several years so price is unlikely to change. In fact there is a chance with the $ movement at the moment that they may go up.

pezarointeriors, Jul 19, 8:31 am

"get in now" was my suggestion .

You'd rather they waited ?

golfaholic2, Jul 19, 9:13 am

No golfaholic, clearly it benefits me for people to buy one now. However I also want people to be correctly informed.

pezarointeriors, Jul 19, 12:30 pm

Thanks for all the help - i have decided to bite the bullet and get a ULE burner for the new build. Would rather get consent for one now then sit around 'waiting'. Am sure once the new place is built ill be glad i did! :)

ljx, Jul 20, 10:00 pm

As do I , for the record , it isn't my opinion about the emissions from the ULE burners authorised to date , it's from probably the most highly qualified testing agent in NZ .
As to ECans future reaction to the news , that's anyones guess , but if the maths doesn't stack up , hmmmm
Keep in mind also , they have choosen 2019? to start the phase out of conventional burners , so they cant be that stressed about the NESAQ target , unless they are going to pressure the Ministry to relent on the consequences of failing to meet it

golfaholic2, Jul 21, 9:01 am

A wise decision . but that's the easy part . picking which one of the three is where the next problem lies .

golfaholic2, Jul 21, 9:02 am

Thanks Golfaholic . i am feeling very torn. I like the look and compact-ness of the Bionic yet the Jayline has a-lot more grunt and is able to be cooked on. And then there is the Xeoos . which sits nicely between the two . i wish i could make an informed decision.

ljx, Jul 21, 9:26 am

How big is the room the burner will be in ? ceiling height ?

Too much heat becomes a problem . I'm not sure how much control over output these burners have ?

Id go small to mid sized , with a heat pump for the bedroom end of house .

golfaholic2, Jul 21, 1:12 pm

The house size is 120 sqm in total, but it is all open plan, so living/lounge/kitchen is about 60-80sq. With only two bed rooms closed off and down the other end, We already have a heat pump so are planning on putting that somewhere (either central or down the bedroom end. Ceiling height standard at 2.4 (i think?) My concern is that the house will be above spec as far as insulation and double glazing etc. I went to look at the Jayline Waltham today but it is so big (looks like a giant robot) . and possibly too much output for what we actually need? However my partner liked the size of the burning chamber in the Jayline as he doesnt like the idea of cutting the wood so small for the likes of the bionic fire (which is my choice as it is a nice looking design and not going to be too hot) - not to mention the 4k price difference. I am thinking now the Xeoos might be a nice middle ground. Its a really hard decision . especially when i go to view the burners in person and the people working it the stores tell me to wait until next year as there will be heaps more on the market and at half the price!

ljx, Jul 21, 6:01 pm

Ijx, ok, I never self promote but as the importer of the Xeoos range I can at least help a little. The Xeoos is the only authorised uleb with heat output control (high/low). It can heat up to 120m2 assuming a 2.5m high ceiling. Firebox size is not really a consideration with any of them as the fires do not use normal combustion. What I would suggest as a start point is to see one running. It will make more sense then.

pezarointeriors, Jul 21, 7:37 pm

The Walltherm will cook you . plain and simple .

The bionic fire will be a comfortable amount of heat in that room . tho it may take a little time to take the chill off .

The Xeoos will leave you spare heat for other parts of the house , but may make it a little uncomfortable in the living room .
Once again , I am unaware of the level of output control

Another thing to consider , how many north/west facing windows ?

golfaholic2, Jul 21, 7:39 pm

Golfaholic, the Xeoos has adjustable output.

pezarointeriors, Jul 21, 7:40 pm

Hearts just sold me . lol .

What sorta control range ?

Oh , standard ceiling height in a home is 2.4mtrs . much of a muchness tho

golfaholic2, Jul 21, 7:41 pm

Ha ha! You know, you are also always welcome to see one running golfaholic? How about a truce and coffee?

pezarointeriors, Jul 21, 7:46 pm

It can go as low as 4kW output.

pezarointeriors, Jul 21, 7:48 pm

Perfect .

golfaholic2, Jul 21, 7:50 pm

Thanks Golfaholic . had a feeling the Jayline would cook us. There are a few North facing Windows but they are all high and narrow. I think its between the Xeoos and the Bionic . Heartofthehome - where can i view it burning? Thanks.

ljx, Jul 21, 8:18 pm

Hi again. An Xeoos runs every Saturday morning at Tropicair Heating (not me). All three run very similarly.

pezarointeriors, Jul 21, 8:24 pm

Thanks, will go check it out. I am still interested to hear of people's experience with the Rais Bionic fire . anyone have one or know someone who does? Thanks

ljx, Jul 23, 9:25 am

Went and saw the Xeoos the other day . was very impressed. The Xeoos has great temperature control, looks good and we liked the fact it was all manual. Think we have now decided we are going to buy one of these for the new build! Thanks for all the advise :)

ljx, Jul 27, 10:42 am

Hi ljx. I am very pleased to hear this. Thank you for your feedback.

pezarointeriors, Jul 27, 7:10 pm

We saw this a week ago and like the look of it too, for our existing house. We're hoping to add one when we extend the house soon.

goose29, Jul 28, 6:20 pm

Again, great to hear. Thanks for the feedback.

pezarointeriors, Jul 28, 9:17 pm

Hi there, any feedback from someone who has the Xeoos installed in their home? thanks

ljx, Sep 18, 8:21 am

i would really love to install one of these. i have been looking for quite some time and keep hoping that one day i'll look and find that they gave dramatically reduced in price :)

I would do just about anything to get one as you can't beat a wood burner, but i'm struggling to justify the cost, especially when i consider that i could get three heat pumps installed for that kind of money.

hmmm decisions decisions

jonners2013, Sep 18, 8:51 am

Open fires burn more cleaner!

nzoomed, Sep 18, 9:16 am

Pets, if you have any, much prefer a fire and cuddling up by the heat pump just doesn't sound right. It wouldn't be very inviting and certainly not near as romantic as a log fire.

kacy5, Sep 18, 9:39 pm

Yes pets do prefer fires . i think its great there are now options for people building new homes in Christchurch. I think the cost is worth it just to 'legally' be allowed to have one. After a few years of enjoying it i am sure it will pay for itself in how much it is used and appreciated. The only down side i see to them other than the cost is the size of them . but again am sure it will be worth it. Still keen to hear of anyones feedback if they have one or are thinking about it. thanks!

ljx, Sep 20, 10:09 am

We can put you in contact with Xeoos customers if that helps.

pezarointeriors, Sep 20, 5:35 pm

Can you install them with a wetback these days? That would help justify the cost of a good fire---having hot water for many months without using much power.

kacy5, Sep 20, 6:24 pm

I would like to hear from some Xeoos customers . perhaps just some feedback posted on here? thanks

ljx, Sep 20, 7:17 pm

With a little ingenuity one can extract heat from the flue to heat water . it might be the most aesthetically pleasing with the xeoos or rais , but the walltherm could easily be modified .

Sooner or later one of the players will come out with an adaption pack . one which the rules currently cannot stop , so no foul no harm

golfaholic2, Sep 20, 8:51 pm

Hi Golfaholic. The Xeoos has one that does just this but man it's an ugly rig! Basically a flue with a further flue leading off. Realistically it would have minimal difference to emissions/efficiency but asthetically it has issues!

pezarointeriors, Sep 21, 12:56 pm

Extracting the heat post combustion will increase efficiency but under 4012 it will reduce it . that's how stupid the rules / tests are .
I have no doubt that with a few minor tweaks , a modular water heating component could be an option without compromising the look of the burner .
Roger Best has a huge issue with the nature of the testing , with so so many variations of heat extraction etc , the rules as they stand make it impossible to get off the ground .
It's a shame the industry cant work together to fight for change which will benefit ALL involved .

golfaholic2, Sep 21, 1:43 pm

Hmmm, 4012/4013 isn't very good for Mr Best's technology anyway. CM1 might have flaws but would suit the technology far more. Thinking on it the efficiency would drop with the heat removal but I wonder if there is a way around that. As for working together, I am always willing to assist.

pezarointeriors, Sep 21, 4:24 pm

Drop under 4012 , increase in real life .

You should push for a stack loss method under CM1 . (ECan have already indicated a willingness to go this avenue)
Heat to water for radiators etc is the future .

golfaholic2, Sep 21, 7:53 pm

My MfE approved rangecookers are exactly this (passed under the FER). However they have 15kW 'wetbacks'.

pezarointeriors, Sep 22, 7:30 am

FET you mean ?
I assume they are not CAA for the likes of Chch ? .

The rules are a bloody mess .

golfaholic2, Apr 11, 3:36 am

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